THX. Τι είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι;

[argi]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

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Monday, November 10, 2008

0 dB THX reference level



The THX 0 dB reference level is a calibrated volume setting used in dubbing, cinema, and home theaters. The 0 dB (decibel) setting represents an average 85 dB SPL (sound pressure level). Movie soundtracks are created and mixed in dubbing theaters. Movies are presented and played back in cinema and home theaters. The general goal of the reference level is to preserve the directors intent which is to ensure that the volume level that the movie was created (mixed) at is the same as the playback volume.

Calibration
Pink noise and a sound pressure level (SPL) meter with C-weighting are used to calibrate the individual 5.1 or 7.1 speaker levels. This calibration balances all of the speakers levels so that they are equal and that no speaker is louder than any other. The calibration also sets the 0 dB volume setting to equal the THX reference level. Both internal and external pink noise signal sources can be used to calibrate the speaker levels. External calibration signals found on video discs are typically full range pink noise at a 85 dB SPL. A preamp/receiver's internal calibration signal is typically banded pink noise played at a 75 dB SPL which is -10 dB down from the reference level. The quieter -10 dB signal is chosen by manufacturers because it is less harsh for users. It is also important to note that banded pink noise and full range pink noise will produce dB level settings that are slightly different. Which one equates to the true reference level depends on who you ask and how flat the frequency response of your speakers are.

Maximum Level
The 0 dB reference level represents an average 85 dB SPL and a maximum 105 dB SPL. The LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel used by AC3 (Dolby Digital) and DTS is +10 dB higher. This means that the maximum output for bass peaks is 115 dB SPL. The purpose of the +10 dB gain for the LFE channel is to increase the dynamic range of bass events such as explosions, crashes, punches, and rumbles. This means when the volume is set to 0 dB that the subwoofer could be asked to produce an output of 115 dB SPL. Such loud bass levels places a heavy resource burden and requires multiple high-end subwoofers to produce it accurately. Fortunately THX processors have a feature called the Bass Peak Limiter which compresses peak levels in an attempt to reduce distortion and prevent speaker damage.

THX theaters
The THX certification process for cinema theaters has numerous audio and visual quality control assurances that must be met. This THX stamp of approval ensures that the movie looks and sounds good. The 0 dB THX reference level is part of this quality assurance and the volume control knob is usually behind a locked panel so that it cannot be adjusted. This ensures that all movies played in a THX certified theater are played at the correct THX 0 dB reference level. Unfortunately a 0 dB volume level is too loud for many patrons and cinema owners so over time many certified THX theaters will have their "locked" reference volume levels reduced. If the rules aren't enforced then what use are rules?

THX equipment
A related benefit of the 0 dB reference level is the requirement that home THX certified equipment, particularly amps and speakers, be able to reproduce volume at this level without distress. Originally two 12" subwoofers were required to meet the THX spec for large rooms. An output level of 105 dB isn't an easy task at 20 - 40 Hz for subwoofers, especially when the +10 dB LFE channel is accounted for. Actually this output spec has been relaxed a lot during the past decade so that a single smaller sub can meet it. This "practicality" was probably due to pressure from consumers and manufacturers.

Thoughts
The 0 dB THX reference level is a wonderful concept for many other reasons. It creates a standard for comparing playback volume levels. If you and I both have our systems calibrated to the reference level then when I say that watched that movie at volume setting of -15 dB then you will know what I mean and you will have a general feeling for how loud that is.

The engineer in me really likes having the volume control operate with units of dB. And the fact the 0 dB level is actually a reference to something makes it even better. I don't know what is but that dB display just soothes my soul. In fact I won't buy a preamp or receiver that doesn't have it.

Watching a movie at 0 dB is crazy loud and I rarely watch a movie anywhere near that level. It depends a lot on the movie but I tend to watch movies with the volume set between -17 and -11 dB. For some very quietly mixed movies I tend to go up to about -5 dB. I love loud bass and I also love my hearing. I just don't understand how the professional sound mixers can listen to their craftwork at the 0 dB reference level for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, without suffering any permanent hearing damage. According to the OSHA occupational noise exposure levels A-weighted SPL's of 90 dB for 8 hours, 105 dB for 1 hours, and115 dB for 15 minutes per day are allowed.

I'm a fan of THX technology and it is kind of sad seeing the slow dilution of the 0 dB reference level specifications. The THX stamp at the cinema and in the home just doesn't mean what it used

 

[argi]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

Many die-hard conservative audiophiles at first eschewed the use of a subwoofer as a novelty trick of home theater, unsuitable for music reproduction. As the frequency extension benefits of a dedicated subwoofer became more and more undeniable, many shifted to the policy of running every loudspeaker “full-range” with a “pure” signal, and then setting the subwoofer to simply “fill in” where the other speakers left off. As knowledge moved on, the position has retreated to recommending lower crossover frequencies for larger, floor-standing loudspeakers, such as between 30-50Hz, as opposed to higher crossover frequencies in the 80-100 Hz range.
Higher crossover points for subwoofer integration, regardless of the range of your main or surround speakers, have some potential advantages. The higher the crossover frequency…

• With a greater range of the bass content handled by the subwoofer, a component with usually greater placement flexibility than the other speakers, such as in corners, out of corners, under coffee tables, or even right next to your “main” speakers, you may be able to get a better room lock over more of the low frequency range, where standing waves can be extremely problematic. In fact, Floyd E. Toole goes into this with great depth and clarity in his paper located at

www.harman.com/wp/pdf/Loudspeakers&RoomsPt3.pdf

If you haven’t read this already, you really should.

• Less output is demanded at the same SPL, both from the amplifiers driving the front and surround speakers, but also from the front and surround loudspeakers themselves, resulting in lower distortion, and less compression in the most audible spectrum, and greater dynamic range from the system. Subjectively speaking, the sound may become clearer, more open, and more realistic. This does assume that your subwoofer is similarly or more competent handling low frequency content than your other speakers, but if the sub’s truly a good’n, that’s pretty much a given.
(Side note: I noticed that according to Consumer’s Report’s latest issue, all subwoofers are pretty good, and that for a couple hundred bucks, you should be fine. I strongly disagree, as in my experience, although a subwoofer is the most cost-effective means to get your hands on the bottom octave, you should start your shopping at about three times that if you expect to get anything that even remotely qualifies as a subwoofer, as opposed to simply an extra woofer in another box.)

• “Faster” bass. I know that “fast” bass is an oxymoron, and if you really care about transient response, assuming a competent subwoofer design, you’re best off spending your energy addressing room interaction to obtain the flattest frequency response, and the transient response will follow. However, if you really want to nitpic, the fact is that aside from subwoofers that have peaky frequency responses themselves, and are doomed from the beginning, the greatest limitation of transient response is usually at the low-frequency limit of the subwoofer (and if it’s low enough so that you can’t hear it, who cares) and at the high-frequency limit, imposed by the low-pass crossover slope. Given any particular alignment (in the case of our THX spec, 4th order Linkwitz/Riley) the actual group delay imposed by the filter will be inversely proportional to the frequency at which the filter is implemented. I.e., the group delay for a 40 Hz crossover frequency will be twice that of an 80 Hz crossover frequency, and four times that of a 160 Hz crossover frequency.
• LFE Channel integrity. When it comes to the "subwoofer jack" on the back of the surround sound decoder, most everyone assumes that bass is taken from channels set to "Small", combined with the LFE channel and bang, you have a subwoofer output.
In the majority of surround sound processors and receivers, FULL RANGE copies of all channels set to "Small" are combined together with the LFE channel, and the sum is low-passed. Think about that. Strictly speaking, any* such processor with a sub/sat crossover frequency set lower than 120 Hz is "discarding" the upper end of the LFE channel. THX units are NOT exempt from this. With the standard THX 80 Hz 4th order crossover, the top of the LFE channel gets chucked.
Don't panic. This has been going on since day one, and virtually nobody has noticed . . . with good reason. I've said many times before, and I will say it again: THX did not pull their crossover out of thin air. It is the product of much development, and, when used in concert with THX speakers (or others which exhibit the correct roll-off), represents the best overall compromise of minimizing localization, extending dynamic range, and as it turns out, minimizing LFE truncation. When Dolby Digital was coming to the consumer marketplace, THX looked at an inordinate number of modern 5.1 soundtracks and guess what they found in the LFE channel: not much at all in the region of 80 Hz - 120 Hz, making their original choice of 80Hz rather fortuitous. Dolby Digital's LFE channel has a digital brick wall at 120 Hz, not a roll-off, so content creators almost always roll-off their stuff, usually somewhere around 80 Hz. Therefore, chucking the top band of the LFE is no big deal but the argument here is that a standard SSP crossover set much lower than 80Hz or so may actually be costing you bass content.
• More consistent frequency response between channels. If the bass from all channels is routed to the subwoofer, the frequency response over the range that the subwoofer produces will be identical between channels. The greater the range of the subwoofer, the greater this benefit. In contrast, any low frequency information produced by separate loudspeakers will not only have different responses in the room due to different physical locations, but there will be cancellations between channels due to distance between them. For instance, the bass response of the right front loudspeaker may be different from the bass response of the left front loudspeaker, which will be dramatically different than the bass response from the left and right front channels combined, and very much NOT an average of the two, but a haphazard mix, most likely a boost at extremely low frequencies, and a dip at frequencies just slightly higher, such as a rise 20 Hz and below and a dip at 50 Hz for a pair of speakers separated by 10 feet.


As always in this ying and yang world, some downsides...

• As higher frequencies are more audible than lower frequencies (in the range of a potential subwoofer crossover) higher crossover frequencies put the crossover transition in a more audible position, so that the same degree of screw up in implementation will be easier to detect. If you don’t do it right, it’ll bite you. If you’re afraid or ambivalent about using an SPL meter to get an even channel balance between all loudspeakers, you may be best of keeping the crossover frequency at 50 Hz or lower, regardless of potential benefits of higher settings.

• Less “stereo” bass. This is far less valid a concern than most would think, but it may be a valid gripe IF you’ve got some media content with real “stereo” low frequency information, most likely phase difference between channels as opposed to level differences. However, unless a particular source was recorded with substantially spaced microphones (10-20 feet, for example) and the recording engineer actually took efforts to keep that low-frequency information discrete (not summed to a single channel, which is itself a common practice for low bass) all the way through the mixing, and then the mastering process, those phase differences will be lost, and simply result in amplitude changes. For the few recordings that may actually have directional low-frequency content, such as fringe audiophile labels like Chesky, you can conceivably benefit from “stereo” bass IF you put subwoofers or your full-range speakers on different sides of a large room, allowing the phase differences from different directions to lend a sense of space reflecting the size of the original venue, which may be of use if 1.) there was a real venue, meaning it wasn’t recorded in a recording studio, and 2.) the venue was large enough to benefit from a sense of space, for instance a large concert hall or cathedral. Then again, simply having the full extent of low frequency content, stereo or not, can impart much of the same sensation. For those of whom for which this rare scenario makes stereo bass worth it, the scenario of a subwoofer for each channel might be worthwhile, despite the inevitable, and in my opinion, more substantial drawbacks.

• Some subwoofers can’t cut a higher crossover frequency. While even large “full-range” speakers will usually perform substantially better when alleviated from low bass duty, some subwoofers aren’t suited to higher crossover frequencies, for two reasons.

1. Their crossovers (or the low-pass slopes in the surround processor or receiver) aren’t fast (sharp) enough in their transition. It’s not that 100 Hz is really that easy to localize, but that frequencies a bit above it are. Keep in mind that the shape of the low-pass filter is an issue, and in reality a curve which varies from crossover to crossover in how quickly it transitions from no slope to it’s steepest slope, the rate specified, such as 12 dB/octave or 24 dB/octave. Still, consider a theoretical impossibility, for the sake of illustration- the immediate crossover that goes from completely flat to a straight angle down exactly at the stated crossover frequency.

Take 400 Hz and 800 Hz tones as content to be filtered out by our subwoofer crossover as an example of localizable content. A crossover at 50 Hz, 12 dB/octave will be …
-12 dB @ 100 Hz
-24 dB @ 200 Hz
-36 dB @ 400 Hz
-48 dB @ 800 Hz

Contrast that with the same 12 dB/octave slope kicking in at 100 Hz, and you get…
-0 dB @ 100 Hz
-12 dB @ 200 Hz
-24 dB @ 400 Hz
-36 dB @ 800 Hz
In such a case, the 100 Hz crossover point is certainly worse than the 50 Hz crossover point, and very likely problematic.

On the other hand, consider a 24dB/octave crossover slope implemented at 100 Hz, and the results show…
-0 dB @ 100 Hz
-24 dB @ 200 Hz
-48 dB @ 400 Hz
-72 dB @ 800 Hz

As you can easily see, a subwoofer with a 12 dB/octave crossover would not be suitable for a remotely higher crossover frequency. However, that would not preclude 100 Hz as a crossover frequency, as the sharper filter slope that started at 100 Hz would have less content above 200 Hz than the first, shallower filter that started at 50 Hz.

2. Some subwoofers aren’t suitable for higher crossover frequencies because of distortion. Harmonic distortion components are multiples of the original content, be it an original fundamental or harmonic itself. For example, harmonic distortion of a 20 Hz tone will generate energy @ 40 Hz, 60 Hz, 80 Hz, 100 Hz, etc., usually with the lower components higher in amplitude in the case of loudspeakers. In fact, many less experienced listeners, even some experienced musicians, will actually PREFER the distorted low frequency reproduction, as it provides MORE low bass, with the added spectrum in the more audible range. It sounds louder, and richer. When these subwoofers are allowed to run at higher frequencies via higher crossover settings, their harmonic distortion components reach a higher spectrum as well. It’s not that they necessarily produce more distortion than at lower crossover settings, but that the distortion is easier to hear, and easier to locate, and unlike the original content that fed the subwoofer, impervious the attenuation by the crossover, as the distortion is generated after the filter circuit by the power amplifier or the driver itself. In such a case, many may blame the crossover frequency for the increased localization problem, when in fact it’s just making the distortion problem more obvious. While I mention this in the context of subwoofers that have problems with higher crossover points, for those looking for any measure of fidelity, I would go so far as to offer this as an indication of a subwoofer unsuitable for use, period.
Mixing high and low frequency crossovers in a multi-channel set up
Once you wrap your head around the fact that in most products you are setting a high-pass on each main channel and a single low-pass on the sub, the use of a different setting for each speaker (or pairs of speakers) no longer sounds like such a good idea (pun most definitely intended). Lets take an extreme scenario, just to illustrate the point.
We set the high-pass on the main left and right to 35 Hz because we think its in the best interest of our massive tower speakers. We set our center channel high-pass to 100 Hz because it isn't very big. What is the subwoofer low-pass in the processor going to be?
If set at 35 Hz to complement the main speakers, the center channel signal will have a huge hole from 35 Hz - 100 Hz. Whoa! Lots of bass on that channel we don't want to miss out on. So let's try setting the subwoofer low-pass to 100 Hz. Oops! Now we have IN-ROOM 6 dB too much from 35 Hz - 100 Hz on the main channels because BOTH the main speaker and the subwoofer are voicing it. You CANNOT correct for this. If you lower the subwoofer level, you lower it for everything, and now you don't have enough bass from the center channel.
By now some of you are thinking, "Why not low-pass a copy of each main channel at the various frequencies I want and sum that with the full LFE channel?". Possible, yes, and if fact there are some SSP models which do this, but at a price: doing so inherently results in frequency response aberrations due to phase issues. Bass is often common to the front three channels and even more often common between the LFE channel and the fronts. Summing different low-passed copies of the same material would by definition result in a messy frequency response. Take the ubiquitous 4th order low pass as an example: At the crossover frequency its phase has come around to 180deg, absolutely inverted (compared to material it is being summed with). Granted the relative amplitude of that low pass at the crossover frequency is down 6dB but is still enough to create the aberration.
The THX design manual references the Dolby Digital licensing manual which mandates that the subwoofer output be arrived at the way it does for these reasons. If there was a better way to do this, without adding a lot of cost and/or making the product overly complex, I think Dolby would tell us.
One alternative found in some decoders is to take a low-pass copy from the center (in our extreme example, at 100 Hz), add that to the front left/right and still high-pass those at 35 Hz, the balance going to the subwoofer (though you still waste 35 Hz - 120 Hz off the LFE channel). This can be both good and bad, depending on the rest of the design:
- Unless proactively addressed, you can still have the phase issues described above.
- When mixing channels digitally, S/N is lost (approximately 6 dB when two channels are added for example), because after the summing, the combined level has to be attenuated to the original level. Might not sound (pardon the pun) like much but its something a designer has to consider when weighing the pros and cons of doing something.
We acknowledge that a different crossover point for each speaker is a desirable thing from the point of view of real world acoustics and dynamics. The different positions of the speakers in the room virtually dictate it, and the various members of a mismatched speaker set will each have different points of intersection for increasing dynamic range and maximizing bass performance. But without also having a selection of slopes in the SSP and some VERY expensive measuring equipment, one is likely to end up further behind than ahead.
If you want consistent bass response from each channel of your 5.1 system, in our opinion, you're best to set all speakers to "Small", set them all to the same crossover point, and set that point no lower than what you are comfortable throwing away from the LFE channel. If your main left and right speakers are genuinely full range (be honest now!), then you are better off running them full range as opposed to high-passing them at a ridiculously low frequency. Short of that, high passing floor-standing speakers at 70 Hz is not "wasting" them in any way shape or form and in fact will more than likely extend their dynamic range thanks to the relief they'll be getting from the high-pass. Alternatively, setting center and surrounds as "Small", the mains as "Large", subwoofer as "None", and implementing an external two channel crossover to the subwoofer is a valid, and in some situations an advantageous way to go.
- Colin

 

[JOHN MARKOU]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

δΕ ΜΟΥ ΛΕς ΠΕΡΙΜΈΝΕΙς ΝΑ ΤΑ ΔΙΑΒΆΣΕΙ ΚΑΝΕΊς ΟΛΑ ΑΥΤΆ ΤΑ ΚΑΤΕΒΑΤΆ?:137:

 

[argi]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

πες του προδρομου να διαβασει αυτο

According to the OSHA occupational noise exposure levels A-weighted SPL's of 90 dB for 8 hours, 105 dB for 1 hours, and115 dB for 15 minutes per day are allowed

 

[argi]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

μετα απο την προσφατη εμπειρια (θα ελεγα ) με το νεο φιρμ του audyssey μετρησα τον χωρο με τα sub στη θεση THX , ετσι προτεινει το audy .Ερχεται πινακακι με το σαμπ.Και τα σωστα μετρα πυ το βρισκει.Καθε sub με θεση thx που εχω δοκιμασει το audy τα βγαζει στα σωστα μετρα.Αν ενα sub που ειναι thx και δεν το εχω σε αυτη την θεση το audy ερχεται και προσθετει αποσταση .Το λογο τον εχω ανεβασει πιο πανω απο τον ανθρωπο που κανει τα σεμιναρια thx στην ευρωπη.Απο εκει και μετα καποιες δοκιμες με εξτρα αποσταση στο σαμπ μονο ευεργετικα αποτελεσματα μπορουν να εχουν.

 

[argi]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

αν και καπου το ειχα πει , το ξαναλεω γιατι δεν διαβαζουν ολοι τα παντα.
Η απαιτουμενη ισχυη για την προδιαγραφη ειναι 100 βατ στα 4 ομ.Σχετικα ευκολο ακουγεται.
Οι κρυοι pioneer δεν πληρουν την προδιαγραφη και ερχονται να φερουν τα πανω κατω στην κρυαδα.
Περσι φιλος ερειξε στον μεγαλο πιονερο , 5 γιαμο D7 , o ενισχυτακος ζεματαγε και ζοριζοταν , και μιλαμε για νορμαλ εντασεις , βαζοντας πανω ενα τελικο με 120 βατακια (ροτελ 1075) ο ενισχυτης κρυωσε και η ποιοτητα του ηχου ηταν καλυτερη.Σε ντενον αναλογη κατηγοριας τα ιδια.Ηθελα να ηξερα στο θεμα διαχειρισης ισχυος πως δινονται οι σφραγιδες,
Αν στο ιδιο θεμα προσθεσουμε την μη τηρηση προδιαγραφων γνωστη εταιρια ηχειων thx , που εχει παει ο πραμα....
μετα την αποχωρηση του χολμαν πιστευω χαθηκαν πολλα πραματα.Και οπως ελεγε το htm πριν κανα 8χταρι χρονια, κατι επειδη ειναι σφραγισμενο δεν γινεται αυτοματα καλυτερο ή χειροτερο προιον.
Σοφα λογια

 

[gstriftos]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

Η απαιτουμενη ισχυη για την προδιαγραφη ειναι 100 βατ στα 4 ομ.

Για κάθε κανάλι όμως ξεχωριστά και όχι ταυτόχρονα σε όλα τα κανάλια..

 

[argi]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

Σωστα , γιατι λοιπον γονατιζουν ολοι οι ενισχυτες με ενα πιστοποιημενο ηχειο?
και γιατι ζεματανε οι πιονεροι , (που επρεπε να ειναι κρυοι?) για τους αλλους τα ιδια ισχυουν.
Ο πιο ματσο ενισχυτης που οδηγησε τα γιαμο ηταν ο 875 της ονκιο, και ο μεγαλος 10καναλος ντενον.Ολοι οι αλλοι απλα δεν

 

[gstriftos]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

Γιατί δεν παίζει μόνο ένα κανάλι κάθε φορά..

 

[argi]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

και που ειναι η προδιαγραφη ωεω ?

 

[argi]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

να αναφερω οτι ενα σαμπ οπως τα ερθ υπερκαλυπτουν την προδιαγραφη του λουκα.Και κατι που ειχε ρωτησει ο σωτηρης,
τα ερθ τα μετρουν στα 3+ μετρα αποσταση.

 

[argi]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

να και ενας παλιος μακ
\

 

[JOHN MARKOU]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

Ναι ρε αργύρη αλλά τι σχέση εχει το σαμπ με τον τελικό που αναφέρεις?

 

[JargonGR]

Re: Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

να αναφερω οτι ενα σαμπ οπως τα ερθ υπερκαλυπτουν την προδιαγραφη του λουκα.Και κατι που ειχε ρωτησει ο σωτηρης,
τα ερθ τα μετρουν στα 3+ μετρα αποσταση.

Θα σου'λεγα τώρα τίποτα αλλά βαρέθηκα που τα μετράνε στα 3 μέτρα.

Την τρίφλα τους και τη μούτζα τους κάνουν οι wannabe......:143:

 

[argi]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

βελερεφοντη , οταν κατασκευασεις και εσυ κανα σαμπακι , και λαδωσεις για να παρει κανα βραβειο- σαμπ της χρονιας του 03 ελα να μιλησουμε.
Μεχρι τοτε αντιαμο τσιμεντο , κοψε λασπη:143:

 

[argi]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

Ναι ρε αργύρη αλλά τι σχέση εχει το σαμπ με τον τελικό που αναφέρεις?

καμμια
ή μαλλον μια
να κεντρισω το ενδιαφερον του ιολαου:126:
και το πετυχα

 

[JOHN MARKOU]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

Πάντως στα 3 μέτρα μέτρηση δεν υπάρχει για κανένα μεγάφωνο.Και φυσικά ούτε για σαμπ. Ολα μετρώνται στο μέτρο.Και σε ανηχοικούς θαλάμους.

 

[argi]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

1 ετσι λεει η ερθ αληθεια ή oχi οποιος μπορει να αποδειξει οτι λεει ψεμματα ή αληθεια , εδω ειμαι
2 η κλιπς καπου ελεγε οτι οι επιδοσεις ειναι σε normal room

 

[JargonGR]

Ξύπνα Αργύρη!!!!!! Εκτός από εσένα κανείς δεν ασχολείται με την Earth ειδικά πέρα απ'το χωριό μας.

 

[argi]

Απάντηση: THX.Τί είναι και πόσο χρήσιμο είναι?

με αυτα που λες ετσι χελωνονιντζακι εγινες
:143: